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NEWS: French Burqa ban goes into effect on Monday

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NEWS: French Burqa ban goes into effect on Monday Empty NEWS: French Burqa ban goes into effect on Monday

Post by LordRemington Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:34 am

French police will from Monday become the first officers in Europe empowered to intercept Muslim women wearing full-face veils and to threaten them with fines if they refuse to expose their faces.

While some other countries and territories have drawn up bans on the burqa and the niqab, France -- home to Europe's largest Muslim population -- will be the first to risk stirring social tensions by putting one into practice.

The law comes into effect at an already fraught moment in relations between the state and France's Muslim minority, with President Nicolas Sarkozy accused of stigmatising Islam to win back votes from a resurgent far right.

French officials estimate that only around 2,000 women, from a total Muslim population estimated at between four and six million, wear a niqab or a burqa, full-face veils that are traditional in parts of Arabia and South Asia.

But many Muslims and rights watchdogs accuse Sarkozy of targeting one of France's most vulnerable and isolated groups to signal to anti-immigration voters that he shares their fear that Islam is a threat to French culture.

Other critics worry the law may be hard to enforce, since it had to be drawn up without reference to religion to ban any kind of face covering in public and since police officers will not be allowed to remove women's head coverings.

Many supporters of the law have defended it as a measure not designed to harm Islam, but to support a woman's right to walk unveiled, although the text makes it clear that a woman can not choose herself to cover her face in public.

Under a ministerial directive, anyone refusing to lift his or her veil to submit to an identity check can be taken to a police station. There, officers must try to persuade them to remove the garment, and can threaten fines.

A woman who repeatedly insists on appearing veiled in public can be fined 150 euros ($A205) and ordered to attend re-education classes.

There are much more severe penalties for anyone found guilty of forcing someone else to hide his or her face "through threats, violence, constraint, abuse of authority or power for reason of their gender".

Clearly aimed at fathers, husbands or religious leaders who force women to wear face-veils, and applicable to offences committed in public or in private, the law imposes a fine of 30,000 euros and a year in jail.

Moves to impose the law began in June when an opposition Communist lawmaker demanded a parliamentary inquiry into whether the wearing of full-face veils was becoming more prevalent in French Muslim communities.

Sarkozy waited only a couple of days before weighing in, declaring the full-face veil was "not welcome" in France and branding it a symbol of "servitude" and not of religious observance.

France's main Muslim representative body, the CFCM, partially agreed with him, issuing a statement arguing that insisting upon a niqab or a burqa was an "extremist" reading of the Koran and not a "religious obligation".

But other groups claimed the government had seized on an issue that touches a tiny minority and used it to stigmatise the entire Muslim community, which has been accused of failing to integrate into French life.

Foreign extremists, including fugitive al-Qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden used the ban to argue France is at war with Islam, and called for attacks.

It is hard to gauge the mood of the bulk of veil wearing French Muslim women, but two -- who gave their names as Aya and Umm Isra -- said they would not challenge the ban in the street.

But, they added, if they can't wear their niqabs they will likely go out far less often, suggesting the ban could create a hidden underclass.

Sarkozy and his party have refused to back down and, seeing their opinion poll scores dipping and those of the anti-Islam National Front growing, have vowed to start a broader debate on the place of Islam in France.

The centre-right president will seek re-election next year and a strong showing for the Front's leader Marine Le Pen in the first round could fatally wound his campaign and allow the left's candidate to sweep past to victory.

Belgium's parliament has approved a similar law, but has yet to enforce it. In the Netherlands far-right leaders have proposed a ban, and in Italy the right-wing Northern League is lobbying for a ban on the French model.
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/french-burqa-ban-goes-into-force-on-monday-20110409-1d89j.html

I honestly don't know what to think about this matter.

Part of me thinks the Burqa is a symbol of oppression of women, but the other part of me thinks its an expression of their faith, and its kind of harsh to make them pay massive fines for expressing their faith.

I try to have the thought that anyone should be allowed to believe what they want to believe or express their beliefs in whatever way they want, so long as it does not harm others.

Wearing a Burqa doesn't really cause any harm, but then it all comes back to the oppression of women issue. Conflicted about it.

What are your thoughts?
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Post by Arkanay Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:41 am

I dislike the fact that some people want you to respect their traditions when you go to their homeland but they refuse to respect others when they go abroad.

Covering the face may be a symbol of their faith, but don't be blinded by it. There have been cases of some of those women wanting to take pictures for their ID card while wearing a Burqa and that's just... Neutral

I did not read the entire article, but while I believe one should dress as one wishes, there is still the fact that if you do that, you must respect others still.
It's not like the officers are telling them to remove the Burqa because they feel like it. There have been deaths around the world because of situations related to this.

I believe governments should do what they can to protect themselves, but also find some sort of balance, hopefully aiming that balance for everyone. Maybe only apply those laws in public indoors or nearby an important location? Something like that, perhaps. Just a thought.
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Post by LordRemington Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:59 am

Its not about respecting their traditions for me, its just about allowing anyone to express themselves so long as it doesn't hurt others, whether it be religious or non-religious. Its not so much about respect as it is tolerance for me. I do in no way respect the use of Burqas as I do think they are oppressive symbols but i do think as far as possible, people should be tolerant of others beliefs.

But you are right. I wasn't aware the ID thing. Thats just moronic. If you go to a country, knowing its customs, you can't expect them to bend to accommodate your customs. But the difference is that this affects people who have lived in France for a while and haven't had an issue with wearing Burqas until now. Its sort of like taking away a right of a person. For anyone muslim woman planning on moving to France, they have no argument for saying they should be allowed to wearing it. They know the new laws there, so if they decide to move their, they must abid by the rules, but the issue is for ones who already live there.

I don't know, for me its kind of a gray area.

Here there is a guy who is trying to have sharia law put in place for people who wish to be put under traditions muslim legal practices. Considering the fact that stealing is punishable by having your hands cut of under sharia law, there is absolutely no way it will EVER happen, and rightfully so as Sharia law is just a violations of human rights in my opinion. but where do you draw the line for what is allowable in terms of expression of faith?

I guess I just feel the fine is pretty steep. The thing is a lot of these women have been wearing Burqas most of their lives, to suddenly make it not okay to wear them at all... I don't know.

My main conflict is between my great dislike of the practices of the muslim religion and the rights for all people to be able to express themselves how they choose.
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Post by Lumorei Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:24 am

Police sometimes tackle me to the floor when I wear my Cthulhu Mask to the supermarket. Food for thought.
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Post by Vektrix Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:22 pm

Actually, they do not have to wear the face part of the outfit. They only have to cover their hair and body to hide it's shape. If you ask me it is silly that religion ignores your natural instinct to procreate - this is a pretense it uses.

Burkhas are symbols of oppression, and it shocks me that women even take it seriously scratch Afterall, the suffragette movement fought (and some died) so women can get the vote. Then in the 60's and 70's feminism developed to champion equal opportunities. Religion tends to be run by men, so why hasn't it effected that?
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Post by Andeavor Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:17 pm

The Muslim population, which is concentrated in the Middle East isn't as progressive as the Western (Christian) population. They haven't gone through their own religious revolutions yet, which would lead to things such as the women's movement. Currently, we're seeing a political revolution but it'll take another couple of decades until their religion(s) get some fresh wind in them.

One of the major obstacles for that is that the Islam is still a strict male-oriented religion, and unless they completely turn it upside down, women will never gain their own religious freedom and hence will have trouble getting out of a tradition that has engrained itself in their DNA.
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Post by Aletrius Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:20 am

I see no problem with banning the Burqa. If you move to a country, then you should make efforts to integrate yourself within that culture.
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Post by Vektrix Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:36 pm

Thomas1134 wrote:I see no problem with banning the Burqa. If you move to a country, then you should make efforts to integrate yourself within that culture.

I have no issue with banning the face covering, since that is not required through the religious dogma. However, my issue is that this may just be the start. As already stated, they must cover their body shape and hair, but the face is only an optional extra. Actually, the issue is the possible snowball effect. Currently in the UK Sikh's don't have to wear crash helmets on motorbikes as long as they wear their turban scratch That one seems silly, since the law is there for YOUR SAFETY, not to intentionally alienate your religious beliefs.

While we're at it, let's ban the wearing of crucifixes, the small hats that jews wear (sorry, I don't know their name), cassocks and surpluses (my dad wears his cassock pretty much all day on Sunday as he goes from church to church).

Anyway, I say ban just the face part, not the whole outfit.
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Post by LordRemington Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:27 pm

I don't see this turning into a snowball effect situation. The removal of the covering of the face is purely for safety reasons, not for social perception reasons (or atleast that is what it appears to be).

They would need to have legitimate reasons for trying ban anything else.

oh and Pat, the small hat Jewish men wear is called a yamaka Razz
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